The Rage of the 'Empaths' -The Dangers of Intolerance: Culty Behavior in Today's World

Below is the transcript for the ‘WTF is on my Mind?!’ episode: The Rage of the ‘Empaths’.

Hello all. So, what a time to be alive. The world is insane.

So I was thinking about what it's like inside a cult. And one of the things that happens is you don't realize it because you're so used to the environment, but you're terrified of stepping outside of certain boundaries. And those boundaries have been provided usually by the cult leader, actually always by the cult leader. And although you're never explicitly told

If you step outside of these boundaries, you're screwed. But it's implicit that if you step outside of the boundaries, you're a certain kind of person, a bad person, know, a suppressive, know, whatever it is, whatever culture you're in.

And you're constantly given feedback about your behavior. Like the way you're behaving is not right. The absolute best way to behave, although not explicitly said, is exactly what the cult leader wants is the best way to behave is what makes you a good person. So the morality is whatever the cult leader wants is good. And what the cult leader doesn't want is bad. It's a really screwed-up morality.

So this feedback you get constantly, I was thinking about in 2017, as I was beginning to wake up, I was in LA and I was at a, at a house in LA at a pool. was kind of like a pool party. were having one weekend and the people that were there were people that had woken up, realized what was going on. And some of them were trying to help me and a photograph was taken of myself, Bonnie, my mom, and a few other soon-to-be defectors.

And it was really interesting because I got a message. I can't remember if was a, it was a voice memo or a call. It might've been a call from somebody in the communications department of NXIVM that was very concerned about me appearing in this photograph with people that were speaking dishonorably about the organization. Now, what does dishonorably mean? It means talking trash, speaking

about the organization in negative terms, questioning the organization too much. So in Nixxiom, when you did that, you were considered to be speaking with dishonor, which was a very, very bad thing. If it got worse and worse, you would then be labeled a suppressive. know, somebody might say, eventually, if you'd left, you've, he's taken the fall or she's taken the fall. And for those of you that know a lot about NXIVM, you'll know that.

That was one of the worst things that could happen taking the fall. was an entire module called the fall. So this person calls me up, says, I'm, you know, just very concerned about you appearing with these people. And I was already sort of half awake. And so I sort of blew it off. It's like, what's the big deal? I'm just hanging out at a pool, you know, and it was so weird that I had to defend myself against somebody who was, can I describe him? I don't want to use his name because I.

I hope he's woken up. It's not necessary to use his name, but somebody who just very, very linear, the kind of person you want to coerce and control people because they're extremely linear. can't laterally. They can't relate so many things. They can relate things together that are in the linear path that they think in. So there were about three, two or three people in the communications department that I called like the ethics police and this guy was one of them. And so this was a big deal that I was seen in a photograph with people that were speaking with dishonor and potentially suppressives. now bear in mind, I was soon to become a suppressive as well. I was soon probably according to them to have taken the fall because

Cause the thing is it's like anybody that disagrees with the leader has taken the fall. It's sort of like, somebody who leaves a church and then they say things like, you know, they've been, they're in league with Lucifer. They've been taken by Satan. It's the same kind of, kind of bullshit. It's, it's a Victorian mindset. Sort of like, they're a witch, you know, they need to be burned. And the reason I was thinking about this is because the online space right now is really, really fucking prickly. And for those of you that have heard my podcast episode, prickly people, you know what I mean. And so I talk about a whole bunch of things and as much as I can, I talk about the pattern of things, not the specifics. And the reason there's many reasons. And I've said this before, because I feel like if you can understand the pattern, you can apply it in multiple contexts. And also because there are in people's nervous systems, these trip wires.

Certain things, if you say this word, they fly off the handle. If you say that word, they get very upset. They call you some name. And I got this message and I rarely listen. I rarely not listen. I rarely read messages in Instagram or Facebook or Twitter for that matter, especially if I don't follow the person. don't get to get those messages unless I go look in that in that folder. For some reason, one day I was looking, it's pretty recent. And I read this, this comment and this person said:

wow, I've been such a fan of yours. Listen to all your podcasts, even commented and given you encouragement, but it's been pointed out to me that you follow and like so many bad label accounts. Despicable Mark. That's truly despicable. And I've lost complete respect.

Now. Was that offensive to me? Not at all. But it was interesting because it represents an archetype. And I'm interested in this archetype. It's kind of this weird, ultra -religious, Victorian archetype. mean, imagine spending your time online. And let's say they admired me at one point, and now they want to go look to see who I'm following. I suppose you could do that.

But then you start to see, they're following that person. they're following this person. my God. They're blank. Bad word. Imagine, imagine that life that you like, you just fucking want to investigate people to see what alliances they may have. And that's pretty much what happened in the cult is there was, there were people in the communications department that I call the ethics police that did that - actually weren't called the ethics police. was, it was a word that a number of us defectors came up with. the ethics police are looking at us or all the ethics police called me. We began to, make fun of the organization before we realized what was really going on. We began to make fun of the organization, a few of us. So imagine being like that, that whatever programming, you know, you have, you're looking online at people trying to figure out who they're connected to, who they're, who they're following because you want to find something. And if you find that they're aligned to something you believe is bad, then you fly off the handle. It was so interesting, this archetype. And it reminds me of, it's an ultra religious thing. It reminds me of the kinds of people that saw somebody doing something and then this is, they're a witch, you know? And I know that this person would be very angry that I was suggesting that she was anything like that.

But the thing is I look at patterns and what I see is I see the identical pattern. It's just that they're different words now and they call themselves different people. And there are some people I think that are, I think God's side calls them suicidally empathic. know, I call it like toxic empathy. you care so much seemingly that you now want to root out anything that goes against the beautiful values that you care about. And so you abandoned your own empathy and you go after anybody with whatever means necessary. You've seen that in people that are supposed to be good people saying the most vile things. And maybe it's the boundary between them and reality that they have with social media, because you tend not to say those things to people unless you're just rabidly fucked up in that moment. You tend to be more reserved, but online.

I really do believe people's true nature comes out. It's not like they become something they're not. I think they, it just reveals what they really are. So I was so fascinated at this archetype because this archetype, they're very firmly entrenched in their sort of toxic ideology. And I say it's toxic and I don't know what their ideology is, but I say it's toxic because the word they used is a sort of

a blanket term that's being thrown around right now for anybody that questions something. Now, let me also say, if you look at a writer's Google searches, it's fucking terrifying because writers search all kinds of things. And I follow people, by the way, that I disagree with their, their politics, their spirituality. I disagree with a whole bunch of things, but what I am trying to do after having left a cult is not narrow myself again the way I did but be as broad as I can so I follow certain people because I want to see well What is so -and -so think about this world event and I listen to so -and -so I'm like, it's pretty fucked up. But let me see if I can understand how they could arrive at that idea I Don't think it's good and healthy to Silo oneself off from everybody's opinion that doesn't agree with you. I think it's very unhealthy now I see in mainstream society that that is what's being taught to everybody. Like you need to hate anybody that disagrees with what you believe in. And it is being stoked by the media and by whoever is, you know, paying for that media. It got me thinking about these labels. You know, there's all these labels that we use with each other. And there are these labels that were terrified of being called that label. You know, I was thinking, I have this label maker. Can we see it? Yeah, there we go.

I have this label maker, right? Doesn't matter what kind of label maker it is, but there are people who use labels, right? Now I'm so interested in the label makers because the label makers are usually think tanks. they're PR companies that begin putting a word or term or an idea out into the media.

And they they're using, you know, social media influences, whatever, to put this word, this label out there. It doesn't really necessarily just happen organically. know, I know it seems that way, but having been in show business for a long time, like nothing happens organically in showbiz really like it's engineered. So the label makers are the people that use those words. you know, like something, you know, I know something phobic, anti this, know, whatever it is, there's, there's a word that gets bandied about and you don't want to be labeled with that thing. And you're terrified. can tell you in NXIVM, the idea that somebody would label me as speaking with dishonor, seemed terrifying at the time. Being dishonorable seemed terrifying, suppressive, horrifying. If anybody ever said, I'm concerned you've taken the fall, I'd be like shocked. I mean, it's a bit like saying, you know, I think that if I was in a religious context, a bit like somebody saying, you know, I think you've, you've, you've, you've fallen like Lucifer or you've, know, you've, you're, you've taken up with Satan or whatever the, whatever the terms are in religion. I was scared of it. And the label makers engineer labels much like a cult eater does to terrify everybody. Two things, I think to terrify everybody, to, to, to keep them in line. And also they, motivate a group of flying monkeys to use those labels to sort of punish other people back into line. So when I have people call me names, I think to myself, well, it's funny because that name they're calling me is literally a news talking point. And they think that they're an independent thinker and they think that they're very smart and they're, you know, a rational thinker, but they're literally just parroting what was on the news the night before. It could be CNN, it could be FOX and please, if you believe either one is better than the other, I'm sorry. I need to sell you a bridge. Like they are corporate-owned structures. They have an agenda. They have an ideology. I don't think either of the ideologies is good. Now I know some people, especially in my camp are going to be like, how can you speak ill of CNN? It is the mouthpiece of God. It's fucking not. It's a mouthpiece of corporations. So grow up.

So this label maker thing, these tech gods, whoever's above them create labels. We use them on each other. And the problem is the minute you get called a label, it's sort of like you feel like you need to defend yourself against the label and the conversation ends. You know, it's a thought stopper. You've heard those of you that understand what happens in cults. Thought stoppers.

And honestly, in narcissistic abusive relationships as well, you can say something to cut somebody off at the knees. And now they're trying to defend against what you just said, rather than the point they're trying to make or whatever idea they have. What's so interesting is that there's a complete lack of curiosity on the part of people that rage against people on social media. Like it's interesting, this particular woman.

You know, she says you follow and like certain accounts. Well, I follow a lot of different accounts and I like certain accounts and not certain accounts. I like certain posts on certain accounts. There's a there's the thing that I saw. I want to read it to you. It's really, really good. Yes, this is it. No, that's not it. Yeah. Liv Boeree You guys have to follow this woman. She's really incredible. Liv Boeree said something really interesting. This was on August 13th. She said:

The tricky thing about reality is that it is perfectly possible for someone to have a shitty personality and questionable morals and yet still make very valid points. The exact inverse is possible also, and all the combinations in between. No wonder so many just give up and join political cults, or dissolve into nihilism - you don't have to think anymore. But that self-abandonment always comes back to bite you in the ass eventually. Gotta suck it up and embrace the complexity, it's what you're here for.

I find it so interesting. Embrace the complexity. It's what you're here for. And the reason I find it so interesting is because that's the opposite of what I see people doing. Like there are certain accounts online that I don't really agree with all the person's belief systems, but they'll say something. I'll be like, you know what? I agree with that now.

There's a problem with this idea that you have to 100 % approve of other people. Like there's this utopian vision you have in your world, which is super fucking dangerous by the way, because what happens is, I have this utopian vision. I will only interact with people that have my exact vision. Now, how is that possible? It's possible if you're in some kind of cult where everybody's obedient, but then like what kind of world is that?

It's not bad. Diversity is not bad. When I talk about diversity, I'm also talking about diversity of thought. Diversity of thought is not bad. I know that we are being programmed to believe that diversity of thought is bad and that we must only have unity of thought. But where else have we heard that before? It's really time, I think, that a lot of people go and study Soviet history.

There's a lot, a lot of bad shit that happened. There's not just Nazi Germany. Like there's shit that happened to the side of that before that. It's an age old story. I think this idea that everybody has to agree with you. And if they don't, they're an asshole is deeply fucking narcissistic. mean, it's, let's not even start with it's not wise. It's deeply narcissistic and it's delusional.

You know, there's what? Eight, nine, getting close to 9 billion people on the planet. You expect everybody to be like you? Really? What if we're all different? Isn't that wonderful? No, apparently now it's not wonderful. It's very confusing. You see what I mean? And for those of you that feel, well, you know, are struggling with what I'm saying, just notice that there are contradictions, you know, like diversity is good, but not in thought. Just notice there's a contradiction there. It's really important to notice because

What happens in a cult is there are these contradictions, but what it's almost like we gloss over them. We don't want to deal with them because they're too complex. So that's got me thinking. It's got me thinking about, also I was thinking about a conversation I saw with, Eric Weinstein and Terrence Howard on the Joe Rogan podcast. And Eric Weinstein was coming on to discuss, Terrence Howard's, ideas.

And what Eric was trying to do was he was trying to steel man Terrence's position. He wanted to really understand what Terrence was saying so that he could argue that position. And this is a lost art. actually I'm going to get Richard Granagh and I had a conversation about this the other day, because he sometimes talks online about the sort of Socratic method of if we're going to have a discussion.

Something like I need to be able to understand your position and I need to be able to repeat your position to you, to your satisfaction so that you're clear that I understand what you're saying and vice versa. And then we can have a good faith debate or argument about the ideas. But what happens instead of that is people are like, my shit is good. Your shit stinks. And I need to destroy you. And I'm going to unfollow you. I'm deeply disappointed in you. I, if I had more power, I'd probably shame you, but I don't have more power, but I'm just going to get mad. You see it a lot in a lot of people that are, that think of themselves as very, very empathic. So I like this idea that instead of making a straw man out of somebody's thoughts and thinking and who they are, I like the idea of what if you steal man them instead? What if somebody has a position and you go, I'm interested in that position because I don't agree with it and I want to understand it better. So tell me your position. Let me see if I can understand it. Now it doesn't mean that just because you tell me I'm going to agree with it. And also doesn't mean by the way that you should be censored from sharing your position with me. Why? I'm fucking curious. Let me hear it. But I would love the idea that I would understand where somebody is coming from. You see the thing about having been in a cult and now being out of a cult is I have the benefit of both positions. I can try on to the best of my ability what it's like to be in there in that warm cocoon of very little questioning, feeling like you have all the answers and feeling like in here, we're the good people and all those people out there are the bad people. And how do I know that? Because the cult leaders told me who the bad people are.

And if you take it to larger society, the label makers have told us who the bad people are. And apparently, Mark, you're one of the bad people because you follow certain people on the internet and thou shalt not. Listen to me again. Thou shalt not. That is what you're saying because you're so terrified of other perspectives. What's going to happen as more and more people are censored?

Because apparently people can't handle other perspectives. Eventually what's going to happen is people are going to come across a perspective that's so foreign to them because they haven't gone anywhere. They haven't thought about anything else that they're going to freak out. It's sort of like somebody who never goes outdoors and develops a phobia now. And when they go outdoors, they have a fucking panic attack. Well, that's happening with ideas. So I don't feel offended at all by what this woman said, this former fan of mine.

But I feel, I suppose sad because the archetype it represents is what's happening. And when I look at the, my audience for this podcast and the cities they live in, I just have to say, it really is time to broaden our minds, you know, cause literally what I'm seeing people do is culty behavior. Like I think something or I say something and the next thing doesn't happen that often, but the next thing somebody flies off the handle as though I've literally defamed the holy book. And you say, well, I'm not religious. No, no, no, no, no. I get you're not religious. I'm trying to tell you about the pattern. You're doing the same pattern. You're doing the equivalent of somebody says something negative about your God, their God, and they freak out and you go like, my God, they're serenaded. Okay. Who's your God and what's your religion? That somebody just trodden or trod near or you think trod near, they didn't even do it. But somebody told you that they're a label. So now you have to vilify them and cut them out. know, shunning is, and here's the thing. This archetype wouldn't call that shunning. They would say, well, you know, something like, well, censorship is appropriate. And it's appropriate because they want to build the kind of world that they want to see.

Don't you understand? So did every major authoritarian group. They wanted to build a certain kind of world. you said, well, I'm not authoritarian motherfuckers. You're being authoritarian. If you had a little more power, it'd be frightening. I just think curiosity about other people's perspectives is so interesting. You know, when you have a conversation with somebody, I don't know, I hope you do. And they, they come from a position that you're like unfamiliar with and If you just sit and listen to them long enough, you start to listen to what they're saying and you start to realize, yeah, if I was in their position raised the way they were with the beliefs they have had and the events that have occurred in their life, I think I might think that too. What is so terrible about that? Do you think that suddenly you're going to get brainwashed by trying on somebody's perspective that suddenly you're going to lose yourself? If that's the case on a very deep visceral level, it means that you don't have a strong sense of yourself at all. I'm trying to, it could mean other things. mean, love to hear what people think. Maybe it means something else, but if I can't put aside for a moment, my particular position and my ideology and sort of imagine, you know, what that person's life would be like. If I can't do that, that seems to indicate a certain level of a lack of empathy.

And I don't mean to checkmate people, but like if you think you're empathetic and you want to censor people and you want to silence their voices, that's not empathy. That's something else altogether and very often the very, very opposite of empathy. So thank you to my former fan. of course will never mention your name.

Pointing out something that I'm seeing more and more of, I see a Victorian impulse happening in a seemingly progressive society. And I think it's very dangerous and very, very destructive. I think curiosity, open-mindedness, empathy, trying other people's position on is a way better way to survive the next few decades.

As always, you know what I'm going to say. Stay curious.